christianlegofansfandomcom-20200215-history
Christian LEGO Fans Wiki:Chat/Logs/10 February 2014
10:49 Except that He is high and lifted up, Keps. 10:50 Any other statement is contradictory to the Bible . 10:50 I don't think God would do something that would result in billions of people burning in hell for His glory. People burning in hell does not bring Him glory. 10:50 I will have to get some verses. :P 10:50 Um, Obi 10:50 But he doesn't want to make Himself higher. 10:50 it's justice 10:50 And it does bring him glory. 10:50 He wants us to glorify Him in what we do. 10:50 It's not justice if it's God's fault they are there. 10:50 If you believe God could have prevented sin, then using that reasoning, you would have to believe that it is God's fault. 10:50 ^^^ 10:50 I disagree with that logic, though. :P 10:51 And by doing that, then God sinned, which is impossible. 10:51 <~Batgirl78~> But from the bible it describes him as being flawless. 10:51 God cannot sin, because He sets the standards. 10:51 He can't break who He is. 10:51 God could not prevent sin and give us free will. :P 10:51 Agreed, DK. 10:51 He can and could prevent sin. 10:52 He didn't want to. 10:52 He wanted us to live for ourselves and do good or evil as we chose. 10:52 Oh great, we're going here again? :P 10:52 Obi brought it up 10:52 :P 10:52 @Obi 10:52 Angels had/have free will, Satan chose to disobey God. Man chose to listen to Satan and disobey God. It really is our own fault. 10:52 It is a big part of the discussion, Drew. :P 10:53 But there is some common ground regardless 10:53 Have you ever read The Freedom of the Will? 10:53 We're not here primarily to argue that, we've been there 10:53 :P 10:53 No, Drew 10:53 <~Batgirl78~> But god didn't really need angels...so why were they created in the first place if the world was good? 10:53 I think that's the name of it. 10:53 Let me check. 10:53 Why not? Angels are cool. 10:53 Per Obi. :P 10:53 Why should they be denied the chance to exist? 10:53 Angels bring God glory. 10:53 God doesn't do anything because He "needs" to 10:54 He does it for His own reasons. 10:54 Which we don't always understand. 10:54 Yes, He doesn't need anything. 10:54 <~Batgirl78~> They are but having one not being flawless is rather dumb. Sooner or later that angel would go off the deep end. 10:54 For those of you who are Christian, you know (or should know) that Satan is powerless against us, as described in Luke 10:19 and Col. 2:15. We still chose to sin, don't we? To lie, steal, lust. I sometimes wonder if Man would eat the forbidden fruit without Satan tempting us. 10:54 None were flawless. 10:54 Ultimately, we agree on God's glory, Obi. 10:55 They all could choose to be good or evil, NG. 10:55 In your mind, the reason he chooses to allow free will is for his own glory, correct? 10:55 <~Batgirl78~> ...Then he basically just let them do whatever they wanted. Which gets no one anywhere. 10:55 Well, He does so because otherwise we cannot have a real relationship with Him, so yes. 10:55 What is the glory in making robots? 10:55 Because robots are awesome. 10:55 Seriously (ys) 10:56 But freethinking life is better. 10:56 Robots cannot love. :P 10:56 That's because we think we are free 10:56 :P :P 10:56 Robots absolutely can love, FYI. 10:56 I do believe in free will, though. 10:56 <~Batgirl78~> xD 10:56 No, they can't. They're made of inanimate stuff. 10:56 Because, Keps, you use the talent that God gave you to build them. :P 10:56 Robot-humans would only glorify God because he tells them too. 10:56 The official name for my beliefs is "New Calvinist" :P 10:56 I really cannot answer the question of "free will" because I do not know. In Heaven I will understand, and I pray that one day I will totally understand, as Ephesians 1:17-19 describes. 10:56 Freethinking humans glorify God without the need for a command. 10:56 It's kinda' like Calvinism + Continuist. :P 10:57 Um, no, actually, Keps, we fail 10:57 Neo-Calvinist? 10:57 No, New Calvinist. 10:57 How do we fail, DK? 10:57 Neo = New, literally 10:57 ...look around. 10:57 (fp) 10:57 Obi got you good, Drew. :P 10:57 Simply because we don't need God to say "Human, glorify me again," we fail? 10:57 Adam & Eve had the perfect world. 10:57 We don't know how long they lived in it. 10:58 We failed because we chose evil, and have a sinful nature and can only do good now because of God's grace. 10:58 But they failed. 10:58 Possibly centuries. 10:58 Eventually. 10:58 Yes, Obi. 10:58 Neo-Calvinism is different, Obi. :P 10:58 People have a tendency to fail. 10:58 Think of a different name then, Drew. :P 10:58 Only after the. Fall. 10:58 But both "perfect" humans failed. 10:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Calvinism 10:58 Because New Calvinism = Neo-Calvinism 10:58 No it doesn't. :P 10:58 They're different. :P 10:58 Adam and Eve were not perfect by any means. 10:59 They had free will, and they chose poorly. 10:59 They were at first, Keps. 10:59 Well, the founders failed at etymology then xD 10:59 The Bible says it pretty bluntly. :P 10:59 They were only perfect in that they could not sin. 10:59 Sin didn't exist. 10:59 They could do whatever they want. 10:59 They were oblivious. 10:59 Wait, if they could not sin, how did they sin then? 10:59 They disobeyed God's one command. 10:59 Disobeying Gods commands = sin 10:59 He had no others, and they had no sense of right or wrong. 11:00 By definition 11:00 I was addressing Kepler's statement 11:00 JSYK 11:00 :P 11:01 I might consider myself a New Calvinist but I am a cessationalist. 11:01 What!? :P 11:01 I'm like five times more strongly a continuist than I am a Calvinist. :P 11:01 Although it is abused pretty badly. 11:01 like, that the gifts are still around? 11:01 Yeah 11:02 in what way do you mean? 11:02 Specifically things like prophesy and discernment. 11:02 I've never seen people use "the gifts" :P 11:02 Per Obi 11:02 Tongues still exist, but God doesn't normally choose to use it. 11:02 wait wait wait 11:02 where is your evidence 11:02 *looks in mirror* 11:02 ??? 11:02 I use the Bible . :P 11:02 Yeah Drew, I have a tongue 11:02 Let me find that verse. 11:03 Good, Obi. 11:03 I don't, that's why I use Wikia. 11:03 Tongues still exist. 11:03 :P 11:03 Prophecy is often abused 11:03 I agree. 11:03 Prophecy is very much abused. 11:03 Also, it can count as "adding to the words of God" 11:03 which is a terrible crime 11:03 While I'm finding that verse, would you mind explaining why don't believe in it? 11:03 How is prophecy adding to the Bible ? 11:04 If someone thinks it counts as that, then it is being terribly abused. 11:04 I would find extra translations being more so than that. 11:04 Per Drew 11:04 Prophesy, as described in the Bible , is still subject to the Bible . 11:04 It is unable to add anything. 11:04 Find it. 11:04 you mean little squibbles between languages is worse than telling your church that the world will end on December 21st? 11:04 :P 11:04 It's just bringing up specific things that the Bible already said. 11:05 Prophecies have been made and fulfilled with nothing to do with the Bible . 11:05 Then it isn't really "prophecy" Drew 11:05 wait 11:05 I'll get the verse. :P 11:05 Whatchoo guys talking about? 11:05 lemme rephrase that 11:05 it's not a new prophecy 11:05 It's not the Old Testament prophecy. 11:05 It's totally different. 11:05 It's New Testament prophecy. 11:05 Plus, the prophets in the NT 11:05 spoke about totally different things than what was already in the Bible 11:06 (which was the OT at the time) 11:06 Oh, remember that one guy that said Jesus was gonna come back on a certain day at like 6:00 PM? 11:06 I will find that verse eventually. :P 11:06 It was a few years ago. :P 11:06 yup 11:06 why exactly on the hour, though? 11:06 Drew, using a computer program makes it easier to find verses. 11:06 :P 11:06 There was one of those last year. 11:06 Tongues I have never seen used. 11:06 Idk :P 11:06 I just Googled it, Gs. :P 11:06 I've never seen tongues used properly. 11:06 I have seen it abused, though. 11:07 Sometimes I see gibberish pouring out of Christian's mouths 11:07 http://www.esvbible.org/1+Corinthians+14/ 11:07 and they think they are having some great spiritual moment 11:07 Read that whole thing. :P 11:07 According to the Bible , no one knows the "hour". Any prophecy related to it is fake. 11:07 And I think "good for them" 11:07 I don't see how making a prophecy about, say, economic collapse or a terrorist attack is "adding to the Bible " 11:07 :P 11:07 Because you are claiming that your prophecy is God's word. 11:08 If it comes from any other spirit, it cannot be of God. 11:08 Prophecy can only come from God. 11:08 ^ 11:08 And God's word = The Bible 11:08 So God gifted you prophecy. 11:08 It doesn't make it the Bible . 11:08 False prophecy can come from Satan. 11:08 No, you are twisting the dual definition. 11:08 Yes, it can, Obi. 11:08 but then it is false, not real prophecy 11:08 :P 11:08 Yes, God still gives prophecy to some people. 11:08 I know. 11:08 But it's not like prophecy in the Bible . 11:09 God's Word can be the Bible , but obviously not every word God said is in the. Bible . 11:09 We can't prove it, Drew 11:09 In the Old Testament, at least. 11:09 Prophecy is God telling people about their life according to the Bible . 11:09 Read that link, DK. :P 11:09 But it is still a prohecy, even if false. 11:09 God's word does not make the Bible . 11:09 *prophecy 11:09 And considering what I've seen and heard with prophesy, I'd say we can prove it. 11:09 *prophecy :3 11:09 So, Paul is speaking to the Corinthians in the 1st Century AD 11:09 By definition, I can make up a totally fake prophecy and it is still a prophecy 11:09 Yes. 11:09 In the New Testament. 11:09 People can be given a word from God without it being in the Bible . 11:09 The same time period we are currently living in. 11:10 I agree, Keps. 11:10 As long as it lines up with what the Bible teaches. 11:10 But not in the 1st Century. 11:10 But the things is, Drew, 11:10 Therefore they can be given prophecy. 11:10 NO, NO, NO. 11:10 IK people who have had feelings, or thoughts, that they act upon 11:10 The Bible does not have to teach that building is getting bombed. 11:11 and then it turns out it was a really good thing they did act upon it. 11:11 As far as prophecy is concerned, the Bible says it, I believe it. 11:11 My own grandmother felt that she needed to prepare a meal for this family, just out of the blue 11:11 That's really all the prophecy is. 11:11 And it turns out that family had nothing to eat atm 11:12 But how can you prove it was from God? 11:12 And that is prophecy, and that is not from the Bible . 11:12 The problem is that DK is equivocating "a word said by God" with God's Word (capitalized). 11:12 The only difference, if I'm not mistaken, is that God tells you to tell people something, instead of doing something. 11:12 ^Obi 11:12 You can't prove it to someone else. 11:12 Not every word God said is part of the Bible . :P 11:12 But you can't even prove it to yourself, Drew 11:12 I already stated that. :p 11:12 Yeah, but they didn't seem to get it. :P 11:12 You can believe things but you won't know unless you ask God directly and He answers directly. 11:13 My messages aren't going through again. :/ 11:13 "John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." 11:13 11:13 Anyways... 11:13 Perhaps he does. 11:13 He doesn't need to say HEY ITS THE BIG GUY YOU WERE RIGHT ITSA ME 11:13 If you really know God, and you really know his voice, then you can believe without doubt that it was him. 11:13 ^ 11:13 Sometimes it is a conviction after meditation. 11:13 Even if you're not that close, you can still have faith that it's from him. 11:13 I am still learning to hear His voice. 11:13 And what we have today doesn't seem to line up with all the actions that were being done back in the early NT. 11:14 What do you mean? 11:14 We won't be able to perfectly hear His voice on earth, ever. 11:14 Our sinful nature stands in the way. 11:14 In Heaven we won't have that problem. 11:14 Except by His grace... 11:14 How can you prove that no one has heard His voice? 11:14 But we still struggle with sin and its effects in this world, Obi. 11:14 I'm not trying to prove that. 11:14 We aren't prevented from being shown the truth. 11:14 Even if he doesn't explicitly say it is. 11:15 I'm saying that it can't be proven, when you have a feeling. 11:15 Yes, but God can speak to us if He wants to. 11:15 To base your doctrine off a feeling doesn't feel sound to me. 11:15 You have a good point, our sinful nature can get in the way. But it is possible to get close enough to God, that you know his voice so well, that you cannot mistake it. 11:15 Yes, no doctrine should be based on a feeling. 11:15 DK: Religion is entirely based off feeling. 11:15 Keplers: Ask Obi 11:15 Religion is based off the Bible . :P 11:15 No one can prove He placed man in Eden. 11:15 :P 11:15 The Bible s says it. 11:15 No one can prove the Bible is real. 11:16 It proves itself. 11:16 That's not sound. 11:16 It had never been found faulty. (ys) 11:16 Uh... 11:16 Religion is not founded on emotion 11:16 Keplers, you should take an apologetics course. 11:16 You 're telling me that you believe it's true because it says so. 11:16 Seriously. 11:16 If a four-year-9@: said that you'd laugh. 11:16 I don't believe it because it says it is true 11:16 * old 11:16 Yes, Kep. That's what Faith is all about. Believing the impossible. 11:16 But it matches reality, Keplers 11:16 THANK YOU, GS. 11:16 Um, no, Gs. 11:17 Here's a generic page on hearing God. :P 11:17 It has worked for me. 11:17 http://www.openbible.info/topics/hearing_god 11:17 Maybe it'll be helpful. :P 11:17 It's about believing what is possible. 11:17 No, that is not what faith is about. Faith is based on evidence. 11:17 Because God does it. 11:17 Per Obi. 11:17 DK: find where "And He saw it was good " matches with reality. 11:17 I would be an atheist if it weren,t for evidence, trust me. 11:17 Well, if other parts match with reality, why shouldn't it all, Keps? 11:17 The. Koran matches wholly with reality. 11:17 Christianity does seem impossible to a non-Christian. 11:17 Why shouldn't it Allo? 11:18 "Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." 11:18 11:18 No, it doesn't, Keps. 11:18 No it doesn't... 11:18 Have you read the Koran? 11:18 :P 11:18 It historically happened. 11:18 One of my fave verses, Gs 11:18 The Koran does have some flaws. :P 11:18 Note the word "evidence" 11:18 Faith = evidence of things unseen 11:18 Some would say the Bible does too. 11:18 Koran has a lot of flaws 11:18 It's citing faith as evidence...? 11:18 I've looked at it 11:18 "John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." 11:19 ^ 11:19 The Koran contradicts itself 11:19 I have not seen, but I believe. 11:19 But Thomas still believed. 11:19 The. Bible contradicts. 11:19 Gs, you can have evidence for things unseen. That,s what faith is. 11:19 That's different than believing something that's impossible. 11:19 Nope, Keplers 11:19 Exactly my point, Obi. 11:19 Faith is evidence based. 11:19 @Gs - I can believe in Santa Claus; that doesn't make him real. 11:20 If that's all faith is, then it isn't very good. 11:20 I have proof that he's real, JSYK. 11:20 ^ 11:20 I'm talking about faith, God gave faith to man. 11:20 @DK 11:20 Obi (XD) 11:20 The Bible takes a vengeful, merciless God and makes him the God of peace and forgiveness. 11:20 No, it presents both sides. 11:20 The God who ordered merciless slaughter orders to turn the other cheek. 11:20 Rather contradictory. 11:21 It wasn't merciless slaugther; he gave them years and years and they wouldn't turn. 11:21 If I may point out, that merciless slaughter was perfectly just. 11:21 Per Drew 11:21 Our sin ordered such slaughters. 11:21 Because God said it is? 11:21 Yes 11:21 There was no merciless slaughter.... 11:21 Because it goes against God. 11:21 Who was their creator and master. 11:21 God created everything, so he's kinda' in charge. :P 11:21 His sovereignty demands us to obey. 11:21 Nice argument. 11:22 He has the authority to punish sin, and we don't. 11:22 So if He says to wipe out ten million people because He didn't like them anymore, it's just? 11:22 Yes. 11:22 If He turns and says for everyone to kill each other for fun, it's just? 11:22 Everything He does is righteous. 11:22 Actually, the good argument is that they could have been saved, but they wouldn,t turn from their wicked ways. 11:23 We aren't told that they could have been saved. :P 11:23 They deserved to die just like murders today do. 11:23 We are told that everyone who does believe is saved. 11:23 Everything He does is righteous, even if He earlier said it wasn't righteous. 11:23 No, that would not be righteous. 11:23 He can't contradict himself. 11:23 Except He doesn't change. 11:23 It's literally impossible. 11:23 But God is doing it. 11:23 No, he isn't. :P 11:23 Where does He change? (ys) 11:23 Assume He is. 11:23 Okay 11:23 Assume He decides to wipe out all non-Christians for their ways. 11:24 That's righteous? 11:24 Yes 11:24 (which he will) 11:24 :P 11:24 Per DK. :P 11:24 (Blegh :P ) 11:24 Punishing sin is righteous. 11:24 The only reason we aren't punished is because Christ was punished for us. 11:24 They deserve much worse than death, and that's what they will get if they don't become saved. 11:24 GTG. :P 11:24 Cya o/ :P 11:24 Bai o/ 11:24 QuizUp app apparently has a LEGO section. :P 11:24 My lag prevents me from keeping up with this discussion, sorry guys 11:24 So doing that. :P 11:24 Try refreshing, Obi. 11:24 I had to earlier. 11:24 Good debate, I admit you flattened me. :P 11:25 Yeah, it was fun. :) 11:25 You made me think. :P 11:25 Thanks :P 11:25 It's hard to pretend to believe what you don't. :P 11:25 And try to fight for a cause you disagree with. :P 11:25 I had to pretend to be a Marxist 11:25 For a school assignment :P 11:25 2xd 11:25 I mainly discussed society, though, not God 11:26 Mm. 11:26 :P 11:26 o/ 11:26 lol Obi 11:28 I was gonna' make a blog about prayer today. :3 11:28 I should do it. 11:28 I want to encourage more prayer requests here. 11:28 I'm gonna go, need to concentrate on my scholarship essay 11:28 Btw @Drew - how can you prove that the passage isn't just applying to believers in that place and time? 11:28 Cya Obi o/ 11:28 Cya o/ 11:28 Btw, I officially have National Merit Finalist now :d 11:28 Awesome. :P 11:29 The entire New Testament is primarily letters. 11:29 If we assume that they're only intended for the recipients, then that pretty much destroys most of our faith. 11:29 Well, then how do you take chapter 11? 11:29 About women and hair-coverings? 11:30 I have a big post about that on Gordax 's wall, I believe 11:30 Are women not allowed to speak in church? 11:30 He claimed the Bible was sexist, and I pretty much crushed his argument :P 11:30 Not everything is intended for modern audiences in a modern society. 11:30 Epic Obi. 11:30 :P 11:30 Whoa :P 11:30 I'll have to check that 11:30 :P 11:31 Woman can speak in church, but their role is restricted. 11:31 About the hair... :P 11:31 IDK :P 11:31 I'd say it would apply if all believers were using spiritual gifts. 11:31 Today. 11:31 According to what we read of the gifts, 11:31 Message Wall:Gordax#comm-9001 11:31 Everyone knew it was happening. 11:31 Now I'm going for real. Bye guys /o 11:31 Simon even wanted to buy the gifts. 11:31 o/ 11:32 Today though... 11:32 we don't see healing as a gift 11:32 (though I do believe somtimes miraculous occurrences happen) 11:32 We don't see people using tongues 11:32 (we can easily leran languages if we apply ourselves) 11:33 Sorry, chat wasn't working for me. 11:33 And many Christians prophecy but are wrong. 11:33 Women can speak in church, but I believe that their role is restricted. 11:33 As for the hair thing, IDK. :P 11:33 Yeah, that came through 11:33 Oh 11:33 I didn't see it. :P 11:34 Many churches do have people regularly speaking in tongues. 11:34 The Bible describes a scene where every single believer has a miraculous gift which is evident. 11:34 But I think that's normally abuse. 11:34 I'd agree. 11:34 :P 11:34 We don't see that today. 11:34 If a Christian prophesies, and is wrong, then it wasn't really prophecy. 11:34 Exactly 11:34 :P 11:34 Tongues isn't really practical in our culture. 11:34 Everyone speaks the same language. :P 11:35 Not true, but as I said earlier it's easy to learn 11:35 :P 11:35 For the most part, everyone in the US is going to speak Englsih. 11:35 *English. 11:35 "for the most part" 11:35 :P 11:35 It wouldn't be very helpful to go into an English speaking church, and speak Hebrew. 11:36 No, it wouldn't. 11:36 But it would be helpful were you going to Israel. 11:36 It does happen where someone will literally hear the person speaking as if they were speaking English. 11:36 But as the verse implies, God chooses not to use that as much. 11:36 How come people "called" to be missionaries don't have the gift of tongues? 11:36 :P 11:36 Many of them do. 11:36 Or, a lot of them anyway 11:36 don't 11:37 Hi-res dwarf. 11:37 xP 11:37 :P 11:37 So, if the gifts are still around in the sense they were back then, 11:37 Just because you're in a place where not everyone speaks the same language, does not mean that tongues is necessary, or even helpful. 11:37 whty doesn't everyone have a miraculous spiritual gift? 11:37 Everyone does. 11:38 Like what? 11:38 Spiritual gifts include more than just prophecy and tongues. 11:38 I mentioned discernment, that's one. 11:38 There's a list of gifts Pauls makes; I don't have any of them 11:38 There's other things like faith, love, generosity, prayer, and pretty much any other quality you can think of. 11:39 It's just an area where God gives the person extra "skill". :P 11:39 Haven't seen the verse listing any of those 11:39 :P 11:39 Anway 11:39 need to go 11:39 bbl 11:39 If you mean things like prophecy and tongues, the answer's pretty simple. If you don't desire it, don't pray for it, and are unwilling to share it publicly, then God can't use you in that way. 11:39 Kong, the Bible speaks of a Baptism of the Holy Spirit and of Fire. You can pray about, reading out of the Bible and asking God for tongues. 11:39 Cya :P 11:39 I have to go, too. 11:39 Snap. 11:39 Drew, you have a minutes? 11:39 *Minute 11:39 Sure 11:40 wait, when did any believers have to ask for gifts? 11:40 God gave them. 11:40 I forgot how to delete a photo. You request it by what again? :| 11:40 That's the point of the gifts. 11:40 :P 11:40 IK I have the Holy Spirit; it doesn't mean I have to have tongues 11:40 :P 11:40 Pursue love, and earnestly DESIRE the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. 11:41 There's other verses that say stuff like that, too. 11:41 Desire =/= request 11:41 Desire them, pray for them, stuff like that. :P 11:41 Looking up more verses... 11:42 It can interpreted to be like "stay close to God, revel in his gifts, stay where you desire His spirit etc. 11:42 need to go 11:42 :P 11:42 I'll be afk 11:42 Okay, cya later 11:42 On the LMBW, Gs? 11:44 Never mind, I got it now, Drew. :) 11:44 Okay :) 11:45 I found a link for you, DK. 11:45 I'll leave it on your wall. 2014 02 10